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Transcribed by AI. May Contain Errors.

Amy Quinton 

Hey Kat. Welcome back to Unfold.

Kat Kerlin 

Hey Amy.

Amy Quinton 

So I'm going to play you something let me know if you've ever heard this album before. It is a classic.

Kat Kerlin 

Ooh, good music?

Amy Quinton 

Well, sort of, it's the most popular nature recording in history from 1970. You remember that year right?

Kat Kerlin 

That would be a no.

Kat Kerlin 

Pterodactyl? Wait 1970. Oh, are those whales? Like humpback whales? Aren't they?

Amy Quinton 

Yes they are. This was from Songs of the Humpback Whales that was produced by biologist Roger Payne.

Kat Kerlin 

Oh, Billboard Top 100. I have not heard this.

Amy Quinton 

Well, this album helped spark the anti-whaling movement.

Kat Kerlin 

Really? Humpbacks were an endangered species in the 70s. I heard like nearly 95% of their population was wiped out, up until commercial whaling came to an end.

Amy Quinton 

Yeah, and Roger Payne was the scientist that realized there was an intentional rhyme, repetition and structure to these noises.

Kat Kerlin 

They weren't just noises. They were singing. Today, we know a lot more about these amazing creatures.

Amy Quinton 

Professor and animal behaviorist Brenda McCowan with �ٺ���Ƶ School of Veterinary Medicine has been studying these animals for decades. (*** Please see clarification at end of transcription.***)

Brenda McCowan  

Humpbacks are very socially complex. They travel vast distances. They have a huge vocal repertoire. I always say that every sound ever made in the natural world the humpback makes. It's incredible the diversity of sounds that they produce.

Amy Quinton 

And what we just heard from the humpback album was song. But Brenda says these whales are also known for their social chatter.

Kat Kerlin 

You mean they talk to each other?

Amy Quinton 

Perhaps. Listen.

Kat Kerlin 

That last one was like "Will you all please be quiet?"

Amy Quinton 

Sounded like a motorcycle.

Kat Kerlin 

Yeah. Oh my gosh, that was amazing. That's incredible. By the way, I've never heard that before.

Amy Quinton 

I know right? One of them sounds like a horse.

Kat Kerlin 

Yeah. So scientists have recorded these social sounds. But do we know what they mean? Or what they're saying to each other?

Amy Quinton 

Not entirely. Fred Sharpe is president of Olympic Peninsula Prairies and an affiliate researcher in Brenda's lab at �ٺ���Ƶ. He thinks these social sounds could be more conversational in nature.

Fred Sharpe 

Humpback whales are extremely vociferous beings. And we barely begin to parse the meaning of their songs, their social chatter. We know that some of their cries are used to herd prey. But there's so much we don't know about their acoustic systems and the possibility to do playbacks to try to elicit some form of meaning and interaction is super exciting.

Amy Quinton 

Their research team recently came out with a study on these playback experiments. It's where they record sound from humpbacks, and then play it back to them through an underwater speaker.

Kat Kerlin 

Are they hoping that humans might be able to communicate with a whale? Like talk to them in their own language? Humbackian or Humpbackese?

Amy Quinton 

Right? Well, they aren't that far along. But maybe someday. Communication is their goal.

Kat Kerlin 

So did the playbacks work? Did it spark a conversation?

Amy Quinton 

Well, that's a conversation that we're going to unfold in this episode of Unfold. But before we do, I should point out that the SETI Institute was involved in this research as well.

Kat Kerlin 

SETI, that's the institute that searches for extraterrestrial intelligence. Why are they involved?

Amy Quinton 

They think this interspecies communication could help in the search for extraterrestrial intelligence. Studying intelligent nonhuman species might help us better understand how to detect and interpret communication signals from outer space.

Kat Kerlin 

In a nutshell, talking to whales may one day help us talk to aliens.

Amy Quinton 

If they are out there. So yeah, in a nutshell, it was a Close Encounter of the Whale Kind.

Kat Kerlin 

Oh, this is truly a pod cast.

Amy Quinton 

Coming to you from �ٺ���Ƶ, this is Unfold. I'm Amy Quinton.

Kat Kerlin 

And I'm Kat Kerlin. Okay, Amy, you hinted that there was a conversation with a whale. I need to know more.

Amy Quinton 

Well, the research team was in southeast Alaska. And there are some calls these whales make that researchers think they understand. One of them is the whup call, sometimes called the throp call.

Brenda McCowan 

The whup call I think is thought to be a contact call.

Amy Quinton 

That's Brenda McCowan.

Brenda McCowan  

Sort of a call that sort of lets other whales know that you're about. There's not a whole lot of studies that have been done in terms of determining exactly what its function is.

Amy Quinton 

But Brenda says they produce these whup calls in the background around other humpbacks, and every population of the humpbacks uses this call.

Kat Kerlin 

I've got to hear with this contact call sounds like.

Amy Quinton 

Ok, well I have a recording, luckily.

Kat Kerlin 

It actually said whup.

Amy Quinton 

Yeah, I guess that's why they call it a whup call. And another.

Kat Kerlin 

I love it. Okay, I get it. It's sort of like a low growl.

Amy Quinton 

Yeah, with a little upsweep at the end.

Kat Kerlin 

Maybe they're saying hello.

Amy Quinton 

That's the thought.

Kat Kerlin 

Okay, so researchers conducted these playbacks in the ocean in southeast Alaska.

Amy Quinton 

Yeah, let me set the scene for you. It's August 2021. Brenda and team are on a research vessel near Frederick Sound, Alaska. Here's Fred Sharpe.

Fred Sharpe 

Here we are at the mouth of the beautiful Holkum Bay, Southeast Alaska. Breezy, cloudy day, but workable on the fine ship Glacier Seal. Holding steady.

Amy Quinton 

They have hydrophones, which are underwater microphones. Those are recording and he's about to drop a Lubell underwater speaker off the side of the boat in Holkum Bay.

Fred Sharpe 

And we're going to drop our beautiful Lubell here and get ready for our first round to playbacks. Splashdown.

Kat Kerlin 

So they start the playbacks and then what?

Amy Quinton 

Nothing. You have to remember, whales this time of year are on task eating.

Kat Kerlin 

Oh yeah, that's because they're in their feeding grounds in Alaska. They've just traveled thousands of miles from Hawaii, where they mate, and they don't feed in their breeding grounds. So they're hungry.

Amy Quinton 

Right. So researchers begin these playback trials to groups of whales in Alaska, and are basically getting nowhere. Whales were not paying attention. But they also did some new underwater recordings from one particular group of whales.

Kat Kerlin 

You mean a pod of whales?

Amy Quinton 

Yes. A pod. A pod of nine individuals. Josie Hubbard is a postdoctoral researcher at �ٺ���Ƶ with a PhD in animal behavior. She was part of the research team and on the boat at the time.

Josie Hubbard 

There was a group of whales nearby that was, that were vocalizing. And so we had our hydrophone down and were recording passively what, you know, what they were saying. And a whup call came through that was really high quality. Like really, like, nice recording of this whup call. And so, Brenda actually decided, this is really great quality recording. Let's use this tomorrow.

Kat Kerlin 

So they've recorded this whup call from the pod on the first day.

Amy Quinton 

Yeah, so next day, Fred says the fog was dense, they didn't even think they'd be able to get on the water. At first.

Fred Sharpe 

We did sneak out of our anchorage and do some slow transiting around looking for concentrations of animals. And as the fog was starting to lift, we saw a couple scattered here and there off in the distance nobody really close and we thought, well, it might just be because good as any. We shut down the vessel.

Amy Quinton 

So they're drifting, engines off, in Frederick Sound Alaska.

Kat Kerlin 

Speakers and recorders are in the water now.

Amy Quinton 

And then a whale surfaced right near the boat. Josie Hubbard was on the top deck.

Josie Hubbard 

We split our team such that half of our team was on the top deck, doing observations and trying to keep track of how many whales were around and what they were doing.

Amy Quinton 

The other half are on the bottom deck with Brenda McCowan.

Brenda McCowan  

There was two of us that were doing the playback recording and doing the playback and then a bunch of observers on top taking photographs of the whales' fluke so we could identify the whale and that's why we know it's Twain.

Amy Quinton 

Twain is a 38-year-old female humpback.

Kat Kerlin 

So middled-aged right? Like don't they live until 80 or 90.

Amy Quinton 

That's a best guess. I think so.

Kat Kerlin 

Ok Amy, let's get to the playback.

Amy Quinton 

And then finally, they sent out some pre-recorded whup calls to see if she would respond. Here's the recording.

Kat Kerlin 

And then?

Amy Quinton 

And then nothing. So they try again. And again, nothing. They try a third time. Then they wait about 34 seconds. Then they hear her.

Kat Kerlin  

That's Twain.

Amy Quinton

That's Twain. They try again, and I asked Brenda to listen.

Brenda McCowan  

And that's Twain. Much richer sound. That's us, that's us playing back. Twain. And then after that point, I tried to I tried to actually match the latency of her responses, and she matched the latency of ours.

Amy Quinton 

This latency matching is deliberately shifting the timing between their broadcasts in hopes that the whale would match it.

Kat Kerlin 

So Twain was timing her response to the boat's.

Amy Quinton 

Yeah Brenda says she waited about 10 seconds, and then Twain waited about 10 seconds to respond.

Kat Kerlin 

The boat sends out a hello. Twain replies back hello.

Amy Quinton 

Exactly. It could be Twain's attempt to engage in a conversation. And the observers at the top of the boat who were blind to what was being played down below. Were watching Twain's behavior.

Josie Hubbard 

What was stark to me it was that she stayed in really close distance, and even circled the boat. I guess, it's not just the close proximity that I think was different, but the fact that she stuck around for 20 minutes and circled.

Kat Kerlin 

20 minutes?

Amy Quinton 

 Yeah.

Kat Kerlin 

How many times did Twain respond to the boat?

Amy Quinton 

The boat sent out 38 whup calls and received 36 back from Twain. It took two tries in the beginning to get her to respond. Here's Brenda again.

Brenda McCowan  

It was extraordinary. I mean, I've been studying animal communication for 30 plus years, and I've never experienced anything like that. It was pretty, pretty awesome. After playback after playback of getting nothing to have this really direct turn taking exchange was just amazing. I mean, it was that was surprising. I never would have expected that. I would have expected a response maybe but not like that.

Fred Sharpe 

As far as we know, this has probably been the most elaborate acoustic interchange reported to date with a baleen whale. And the way that that was conducted and the fact that the animal hung around for so long, and interacted temporally with us. It opens the door for further dynamic playbacks.

Kat Kerlin 

Do you think Twain was enjoying the conversation? What was going on?

Amy Quinton 

Well, that's exactly what I wondered. Josie told me it's always hard to tell what animals may be thinking or feeling. But she says it's likely she was enjoying it, or at least curious about the sound she recognized coming from the boat. But at one point that did change for a little bit.

Josie Hubbard 

But then there were some indications towards the middle of the experiment where she started to show signs of agitation, such as what we call wheezy or forced blows when she comes to the surface and breaths, as well as breathing are blowing more frequently, which is thought to indicate agitation.

Kat Kerlin 

Was that a wheezy blow?

Amy Quinton 

Yeah. And Fred said that little hoot at the end of this blow could also indicate exasperation.

Kat Kerlin 

I can imagine. Is that when Twain left?

Amy Quinton 

No. She stuck around until the researchers had to stop sending calls. 20 minutes was all their research permit would allow.

Kat Kerlin 

Oh. So she could have left at any point, right? It's not like they were feeding her to get her to stick around.

Amy Quinton 

Right? Brenda says when the call stopped, Twain started to leave. But as she was leaving, she continued to send back whup calls to the boat?

Kat Kerlin 

That's kind of sad. I mean, do you think she just missed her new found friends or these strange humans in a boat?

Amy Quinton 

Brenda says it's possible. But it's also possible that she was hearing her own voice from the boat.

Kat Kerlin 

What? I don't understand.

Amy Quinton 

Well remember that researchers recorded the whup call from the pod they saw the day before. And it turns out Twain was one of the whales in that pod.

Brenda McCowan

It's very possible that this particular call was very salient to her, either because she...it was a group member hers that was producing the call, or perhaps even her own call. We just don't know. But so this was a call that she would have been familiar with one way or the other. And maybe that's the reason why she responded so directly to it all and stayed with us for 20 minutes.

Kat Kerlin 

Interesting. But the whale had to have known that she was hearing this come from a boat and not another whale.

Amy Quinton 

I mean, I would think. These are intelligent creatures.

Kat Kerlin 

Speaking of intelligence, you mentioned extraterrestrial intelligence. When are we going to get to how SETI is involved?

Amy Quinton 

Yes, the SETI Institute. So you might be asking like I was, aren't they the guys that listen for alien signals using those big satellite dish looking things?

Laurance Doyle 

Yes. We are the guys that point radio telescopes at the sky and listen for intelligent signals.

Amy Quinton 

That's Laurance Doyle, an astrophysicist with SETI.

Laurance Doyle 

They ask the question, is there extraterrestrial technology? We ask the question is what has been received intelligent? And so that's our job is to study nonhuman intelligence on Earth, and come up with intelligence filters that SETI can use.

Kat Kerlin 

What is an intelligence filter?

Amy Quinton 

I didn't know either. But we can think of it as a way to understand and quantify the intelligence and communication of other non human species. The thinking is that perhaps scientists could classify this nonhuman communication based on its complexity.

Kat Kerlin 

Like an intelligence ranking? How do they do that?

Amy Quinton 

By using the mathematics of information theory, which was originally developed to determine the amount of information going through telephone lines, believe it or not. I'll let Brenda explain.

Brenda McCowan  

What was discovered by looking at information theory and something else called the Zipf's law is that human languages all tend to show similar mathematical properties, whether it's Russian, whether it's Chinese, whether it's English, the statistical mathematical properties of language are all very similar. And so what we want to do is apply those kinds of mathematical principles to the calls and other kinds of signals of animals to see which animals are showing complex communication.

Amy Quinton 

By the way, she and Laurance Doyle have done this sort of decoding of the whistles of bottlenose dolphins, and found they have similar properties to human language. They realized they should be looking at sequences of signals and not just the calls themselves.

Kat Kerlin 

It sounds a little bit like the same thing Roger Payne figured out, the one who discovered whales were singing because the song had repetition and structure. So are they going to try to decode the sounds of humpbacks using information theory?

Amy Quinton 

Yeah, Brenda wants to use AI and other tools to help find patterns that will give them some insight into how their communication systems are structured. And I can't help but think, and I told Brenda this, that it really does sound like Close Encounters of the Third Kind, you know, that Spielberg movie?

Kat Kerlin 

Only with a whale and not aliens?

Amy Quinton 

Yeah, you saw that movie, right?

Kat Kerlin 

I did not actually see that movie. But I heard that it has to do with, I think there's a scene where they play music to aliens trying to communicate with them.

Amy Quinton 

Right, they'd send out tones, they'd get back tones from aliens. And remember, music is also a mathematical.

Movie Clip 

If everything's ready here on the Dark Side of the Moon, play the five tones.

Brenda McCowan

When I had this, we had this encounter with Twain, one of the things I thought of was Close Encounters of the Third Kind because you know what they do at the end of that movie, is they play back this sort of these musical notes. And then the aliens respond not only by mimicking those notes, but then doing a riff on them.

Movie Clip (music)

Brenda McCowan  

Right? And completely changing them up, which is exactly what I think we should be doing with other non human animals. I think we should be careful. You know, we want to make sure that we're not doing anything harmful. But to really see how we can tweak the system. See what the how the animals respond.

Amy Quinton 

There's also this really cool scene in the movie where the scientists are asking each other if they even know what they're saying to one another. They're really confused because the aliens are playing the music and they're playing the music and they're matching each other. It's like bizarrely similar.

Kat Kerlin 

It sounds very familiar. So yeah, I can totally see why people think of that movie when they hear the story about the whales. It is so similar. So how does Brenda want to change things the next time they try to communicate with whales?

Amy Quinton 

She told me they'll do more dynamic and adaptive playbacks to see how humpbacks respond and how the conversation unfolds. Ultimately, this work could give us a framework for understanding different forms of intelligence.

Kat Kerlin 

Both on this planet and beyond. With that said, it is time we end this close encounter of the whale kind, and let you know that you can find more information on their research on our website, ucdavis.edu/unfold.

Amy Quinton 

You can also find pictures of Twain. But not aliens.

Kat Kerlin 

If you liked this episode, also, don't forget to subscribe to this podcast.

Amy Quinton 

I'm Amy Quinton.

Kat Kerlin 

And I'm Kat Kerlin. Thanks for listening.

Amy Quinton 

Unfold is a production of �ٺ���Ƶ it's edited by Marianne Russ Sharp. Original music for Unfold comes from Damien Verrett and Curtis Jerome Haynes. Additional music comes from Blue Dot Sessions. The study on the humpback whale communication was conducted under the NOAA/National Marine Fisheries Research Permit 19703.

*** Clarification: Brenda McCowan notes that she has studied humpbacks across decades but her primary research focus over the past 30 years has been on dolphins and primates, among other animals.